And som. It may be all they can do to get help. Please. Theres a lot in the Bible, not just one verse. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. 0.175. This man, if all that is being said is true, is guilty of causing scandal-that is lots worse than just being some pitiful old drunk. I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. So Id say that part worked. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. They could look up names and addresses of mental health professionals or treatment programs in their area. Al-Anon is extremely beneficial and informative, albeit unpleasant. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. Maybe they show the same support and solidarity to the poor, the downtrodden and the oppressed. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. 2. a check forger, or took exception to what I said and said I created a false correlation. If that's the case, then Albert Mohler is one of the most radical Social Justice Warriors in evangelicalism, doing a 180-degree turn from his 2014 debate with Jim Wallis on the subject. We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. They will learn not to talk about problems and not to seek help for problems, because its obviously not a safe place and they could be publicly humiliated next. Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. Unfortunately, alcoholism often goes hand and hand with spousal abuse and emotional damage inflicted upon the children. Sproul Jr. was arrested for driving under the influence and seemed to want use this as another defense for Jr. I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. He was bored. Today, JUNE 21, 2017, the Huffington Post ran an article called, THE SUPER PREDATORS: Ill also know when I start to hear from some of the others he did the same to and they let me know hes confessed and repented to them too. I wouldnt wish spiritual abuse on my worst enemy either. Yes, she and I are in agreement on that point. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. From what Im seeing on this thread, RC Jr. is Mark Driscoll, but only with more beer added. I have observed and experienced this truth throughout my own life. To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison. But I dont think Sproul 2s substance abuse (he is an adult) disqualifies his father from serving in the clergy. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. Thank you Lisa for your comments here. Not that youre to blame for it. That is a very condescending response, Velour. Sproul was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as the second child of Robert Cecil Sproul, an accountant and a veteran of World War II and his wife, Mayre Ann Sproul (ne Yardis). No, I saw your list. Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is currently listed at 347 Bellview Pl, Sanford, 32771 Florida and is affiliated with the Republican Party of Florida. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, (*I am not endorsing Rachel Held Evans, this is just the website where I found the article.). The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. Doctor R C Sproul PhD BA BD, was the founder of Ligonier Ministries, a theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and Presbyterian pastor. Will continue to pray for you and everyone here who are dealing with pain. R.C. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church.There is afterall a disease involved, but a church should not enable. Serous help? On May 30, 2017 RC Sproul Jr appeared before Judge Frances C. Gull in Allen County Indiana Drug Court to determine his eligibility for the Drug Court Treatment Program. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. Instead he said the charges against his son were fraudulent which meant he was basically accusing everyone of being liars. At the time Jr. was unmarried and although he knew that she was my wife, he came on to her more than once. Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] For everybodys sake. Tax evasion is a crime. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. He was sentenced to 1 year and 183 days incarceration. Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. In 2005, I was 13 years old and my family had just joined R.C. I was only thinking of verse 11. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. They dont either. If that wasnt bad enough, look who wrote the books foreword: Tullian Tchividjian Coral Ridge Presbyterian Churchs ousted pastor who was caught in serial clergy sexual misconduct, and who has never repented to the victims he harmed! I find that the best part of blogging. Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. More and more articles have been released in the last 15 years containing information from studies saying that anti-depressant medications do not work for most people. Addiction, rather than disease, is a better way to characterize alcoholism IMO. (Is this still considered true? Vesta Sproul: Advice for Young Converts NonConformist Ministries 38 subscribers 7.3K views 2 years ago In this video Andy Woodard of NonConformist Ministries interviews Vesta Sproul, wife of. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. What exactly is the definition of an alcoholic? Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. Marriage & Divorce. very things, along with allowing a number of guys to use her as they chose, which often put her childrens lives in jeopardy. We received an email from a former member of RC Sproul Jr's church. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. Or would you see the situation differently? Most drunk drivers know theyre drunk, and theyre worried about potential consequences, so they slow down. Yes, Christiane, thats precisely how it works. Thanks Refugee for your feedback. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. the second half of that comment was by me, not by Jeff. Clearly. Im not contesting that. Al-Anon is extremely beneficial and informative, albeit unpleasant. That is, if the words of sacred Scripture For God so loved the world hold any solid meaning for them. Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. I have read it several times, actually. Hi Julie Anne, Albert Mohler is a Social Justice Warrior, make no mistake about it. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. He was defrocked by the RPCGA, a denomination his father never had anything to do with. Because DUIs are manly. The process which Christ Jesus taught was not kicking someone out. Pittsburgh. It is merely that when the topic came up I wrote about it, and note that I did not address my comment to any particular person. I dont know where the line is. I also see your point, that his family might be better off if he got treatment. 3. I made a few personal connections with ppl. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. Biblical church discipline is not Dark Ages nor cruel. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. I advised him that with Jesus help he could choose not to walk that path. How can a nature be crucified? I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. Provisions have also been made in order to detect error, sin, falsehood and the demonstration of improper behavior within the body of Christ believers. Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. You know I wanted to share the gospel with him, go through the 4 spiritual laws, take him down the Romans road, walk him through the gospel of John etc. Generally will not drink around them. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. 3 Or dont you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? I can never forget the dead that were dragged in off I-95 into our ER. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. BREAKING NEWS: Archbishop Says Church of England Colluded With Sex Abuse Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. No one has said we shouldnt try. Isnt it ironic (and beyond sad) that this thread IS about a church leader. @ Velour: I can believe it, Leslie, that Christians couldnt safely share this information in their churches about their families without judgment, put downs, and potential gossip. Weve already discussed this up the thread. It is Barbaras quote to H.U.G. Velour wrote: The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. %PDF-1.6
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@ Velour: You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. Barbara Roberts made a nasty comment to H.U.G. This Is NOT a Parody! I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. You get the family together and do an intervention. I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. That is probably because some of us have been following RC1 and RC2 longer than others. Hopefully exposure like with this blog and especially the Spinderalla blog helps expose it. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. May he undergo professional treatment and break free from what appears to be a terrible addiction to alcohol. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. The crack I heard was his leg bone splitting lengthwise down his leg. I was never banned from her blog- you may have misunderstood my post on that at my blog. It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. The Bible teaches us what true fellowship of the believer looks like. Velour wrote: The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. 13. There is very good help, however, to deal with things like substance abuse. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. I speak at CR on behalf of educating, as well as other community organizations supporting families such as AA. The authors said said that RC Jnr needs serous treatment which I assume was a typo because they meant he needs serious treatment., Serous means to do with blood. Even Sproul Jr says so. THEN, the problem grows even larger. I am just not going to be holding my breath, thats all. AA in particular is seriously overrated, and even the courts know it. @ Friend: My first thought was this seems unrelated because of the alcoholism, but Scott brings up a good point about being put out. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. thank you for sharing these circumstances. And, yes, thankful for Dee's post. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. Yep, that is one tried and true strategy for the non-drinkers. I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. Gossip and Condemnation of others is no less sinful than is murder. Sproul being terminated from his job for a litany of abuses and disqualifying behaviors. More of Anne Lamotts conversion story: http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html. No. Nevertheless, it is classically associated with lying and unhealthy denial things that are not becoming in a follower of Jesus. Sproul Jr. didn't hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. I know someone who has been banned from Barbaras blog for using the term codependency, which Barbara doesnt permit. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. More setting up for But Everybodys Doing It!? and putting things into strong ideas with smooth words along with the willingness to step in and do that from time to time. im in those environs every so often. Its not yet known for certain what causes the onset of Type 1. As long as he stays de-frocked and out of his victims' lives. Sadly those poor folks he advised not to take their medicines were far more intelligent and realistic than Sproul Jr. Heres just one example of his cult-like practices. And if it is true what you all say about people looking up to preachers, then right up at the top of people who need their jobs taken away is the drunk preacher. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. Al-Anon equips people who have been harmed by problem drinkers to learn how to take care of themselves, and thats different for every person. Please stop. Fried chicken yes, but fried chicken livers, no. Were already all in agreement, Velour, about getting people with addictions into treatment. So please stop arguing where there is no dispute. Groups like Sovereign Grace Churches and others have a pretty broad definition of what they consider gossip. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. They display all of the signs.). Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. And it made us see that the pain we had experienced with our oldest son could be used for good.href=#comment-329312 title=Go to comment of this author>Velour: Your situation reminds us that there are excuses and there are reasons and your real anxiety over your daughters illness was a REASON, not an excuse for medicating .. you were right to get help and thank God you did. But one thing I learned a long time ago is that if I really love them Ill let them suffer the consequences of their actions. Im glad you got out. Im not uncomfortable with Barbs rules. It was never a put down, and the first time I heard it used there was by the recovering alcoholics. Just pondering here. WOW!!! I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. Even that helped. The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. ++++++++++++++. He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). She is a white, non hispanic female registered to vote in Seminole County, Florida. If you have a problem, cut it out or abstain. Today RC Sproul Jr pleaded not guilty and requested a trial by jury. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. This guy is not pastoral material, period. I didnt know about his second marriage. There is more to the story with these people. I did some research. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (ne Yardis) Sproul. What a wonderful ministry that you have had! What Im seeing are a lot of hurting people who trigger very easily over certain things that remind them of past experiences that hurt them. My problem isnt with the Bible, its with your lack of knowledge about how to treat addictions in the Christian community. Sounds like it would do you good. People go at their own pace. And one thing an alky can sniff out in a heartbeat is an ignorant person trying to give them advice. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. Food Menu; Cart; Checkout; Return to website; is vesta ann sproul still alive She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Have child protection services been properly notified and satisfied? A further thought, Velour. I wasnt just a doormat with the word Welcome written on me, I was wall-to-wall carpeting!. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Velour wrote: Id take it over blind faith any day. . 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