Sorry! Join us for this fascinating discussion of miracles today. And we give Glory to God whenever we get the opportunity to be a part of those, but it's, we don't expect that, that the Kingdom, that we'll have experienced the Kingdom in its fullest now. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. She actually ended up being stranded in a third country for about eight months before she could get to the U.S., but the Lord did so many miracles along the way and we're grateful for this. If someone says a treatment works, even at the 1% level, it is tested carefully to see if it works -- especially if there are no obvious side effects. Craig Keener at around 37:00 in the Unbelievable? Her blindness, too, had been instantaneously healed. Advertisement. The character played by Hilary Swank in the 2007 movie The Reaping was based partially on my work as a miracle detective. Kamil makes the interesting point that the testimonies of different religions only reflect what that particular religion has as a theological component. Nathan's point here is interesting, especially in light of the idea that the murderer example is not being used in the right place, that Elijah has this set of standard "tools" that he pulls out but doesn't seem to understand their use or limitations and is prone to misapply them. ", Scott Rae: Yeah, so you had to, I guess you had to check your own-. Untrustworthy Our Cultural Knowledge Crisis, [BONUS] The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. Here's where consistency comes in and the desiderata of Jaynes. I want to refer our listeners to your two volume series on miracles. Christians) than other groups. All I knew was the last letter I got from her said that she didn't know if she was going to live or die. The theists seem unwilling to do the work and want a pass anyway. This last part is the reason we set up replication, controls, and other processes to minimize the effects of the limitations. Biography [ edit] And remember Think Biblically about everything. He doesn't seem to understand the ways that people can fool themselves. And so when she was healed, the first thing she noticed was her feet were flat on the ground. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. This explores some of the rarer causes, but more importantly, the study they reference for the viral cause for the condition had cases that resolved in as long as 2 years (N=11). What surprised you? It's like "no trust me, this is a legit methodology and it leads to the conclusion" and that's enough to legitimize your reasoning process. So Craig thanks so much for being with us. "It got to the point where she was dying. So we interviewed Antoinette Malumbay. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was "ambivalent" about whether these miracles still happen today. Adapted from Editorial Theme html5up.net | @ajlkn, Since these diseases are genetic, it makes it a lot less likely that she had this condition. These are both testable, yet there seems to be little effort by theists to improve the studies, they seem to rather prefer falling back on case studies. From the Send Proof film they admit that they can't publish Bruce Van Natta case because the accurate measurement of the length of intestine needed to verify the result we don't have the technology yet. About a week and a half later at my daughter Allison's soccer there were like 20 families and 20 moms and dads there and one of the fathers that I had said hi to but i didn't know him, walks up to me and he says "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and I said "I'm JP" and he said "how are you doing?" UFO sightings happened all the time in the 1970s and 1980s but suddenly drop when we put cameras in everyone's pocket? Healings, casting out spirits, nature miracles in Mark and so on. It was easier for me for some cultures than for other cultures. Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? I know we, we were really, really praying for him. Syndersmiraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turn-around. Keener: There's confirmation bias I think that can happen either way. We should celebrate that. Really? I asked. So as you've cataloged these different stories and different accounts, what's been the sort of the breath of the geography that's been involved? That is their foretaste of God's future promise to us when there's going to be no more sorrow, there's gonna be no more pain. A good response to this particular study is by Steven Novella at **Proximal Intercessory Prayer: Lets take the following hypothetical study: The study included 24 subjects who were all treated openly with the intervention in question. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens, Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer, Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer, Study of the therapeutic effects of proximal intercessory prayer (STEPP) on auditory and visual impairments in rural Mozambique, Delia Knox healed from being paralyzed after 22 years, Sean George comes back after a heart attack, https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166467/, https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-moon-does-not-affect-mental-health-emergency-room-study-suggests, first evidence for the accelerating universe, https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/, phenomenon of spontaneous recovery of heart activity, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/04/06/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-1-summary/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/10/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-2-littlewoods-law/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/24/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-3-georges-argument/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-4-evaluation-premise-1c/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/06/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-5-evaluation-of-premise-a4/, evidence that someone was sick at one time, evidence that they were not sick at a later time, sometime between those two points they claimed that they were prayed for (and don't always demonstrate that they actually were prayed), they used xrays to diagnose it originally, which is not the best for soft tissue. Further, Nathan points out the problem is that Elijah needs to actually tell us some some epistemic story about what it is that puts people who pray in a position to know that God is the cause of the miracle happening. such profound challenges across so many fronts, I felt an obligation to answer But in this case, he had to have the medical documentation be he'd been on disability. So her initial eyesight is 7/200, quite poor. And even after CPR is stopped, there is an observed phenomenon of spontaneous recovery of heart activity after as much as 15 minutes, and his recovered after 10 minutes. You've written a lot of commentaries on the Gospels. It is for these sorts of problems that randomized controlled studies are developed and are necessary to distinguish effect from non-effect. Certainly, Jesus gave a bright future to Barbara Snyder in 1981. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today. Craig thanks so much for being with us. And why aren't there miracle claims of people spontaneously generating electricity? Further, the authors admit, although they do not disclose the data, that previous attempts to document response to the treatment in other populations have failed. It is pretty clear that not much can be said confidently. I had to work harder to get stuff from Latin America because a lot of it's in Spanish. She was miraculously healed. Christian epistemologist, software engineer, musician, not necessarily in that order. But it's the same situation you have in the Gospels. Craig Keener: Yes. To be charitable to Elijah's point, perhaps he's meaning that if you pray for someone yourself in an impossible situation and there is improvement, you can tell the difference between the fake and real miracle personally. This shows a profound lack of imagination on the part of the investigators, and I think shows their hand. I would add that most of these people are praying most of the time, so it's kind of like looking for astrological causes behind earthquakes -- since earthquakes happen all the time, you can always find one preceding or succeeding any other event you want. Craig Keener: Yeah. We make a mistake in the episode here about corrected vs uncorrected vision measurements. And I think with a little imagination one can probably control for things like spontaneous remission and background effects and even some of the kind of unknown effects by a suitably designed experiment. Despite several operations and treatments, Barbara continued to deteriorate to the point that she was put into respite with doctors orders not to resuscitate. Today we can point to solid finances, I don't believe Barbara Snyder was cured by the intervention of some agent outside the natural world. Secondly we're talking about these things objectively, put yourself in situations where you can have experiential knowledge: pray for sick people that you know they would not be healed unless God showed up. A prolific author, he has written numerous bible commentaries and other works in biblical studies, in addition to his 2 volume work, Miracles. I don't think "I don't know" should be your default position unless that's really where you fall and so what I encourage people to do is read all sides, make an inference to the best explanation and go "this is what i think is most likely the case". Well first of all, the stories weren't all by any means from Congo, but my wife is from Congo. That we all will be ultimately healed if we have trust in Jesus because we'll be with him forever. The primary studies here are Case Studies, which are some of the lowest and least informative types of studies in medicine (see https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence) with Meta-studies, Systematic reviews, and Randomized Controlled Studies being the most effective forms. Note that the STEP study mentioned below is, Let me start by saying that there have been gold standard studies before and after STEP that reached the opposite conclusion: that the group receiving prayer had better outcomes, she said. It completely defies what is possible by any naturalistic means. perhaps this was the case here either with a longer resolving time (N=11 is not that large)? She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. After all the investigations and scrutiny of the numerous claims, not one single credible and fully verified healing by God or any other non-existent deity . But in some places Like I had a student from India, a doctor of ministry student, who said almost everybody that he prays for in India gets healed. I use some basic principles. But even with miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa. I had a lot of connections with Africa, different parts of Africa. Given Keener's habits of simplifying and distorting the actual original claims, and the demonstration throughout all of this that his standards for evidence are terribly low, it calls into question is entire 1300 page book on miracles. Strobel went on to explain that he interviewed skeptics and believers, alike, and included their perspectives in The Case for Miracles. One miracle in particular stands out. "One day, one of her friends called WMBI, which is the radio station in Chicago run by the Moody Bible Institute, and said, 'Pray for Barbara. Quoting myself here (from this post). Scott Rae: Okay. And of course there's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available. Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. We're here at the meetings at the Evangelical Theological Society talking with Dr. Craig Keener. So miracles aren't meant to be [inaudible] for the world's problems. He is the F.M. The protocol also calls for multiple interventions if initial treatments are not effective essentially the subjects receive repeat treatments as long as possible until they report a response. I think we can. This doesn't affect the doctor reports, but the personal reports. These two cases are some of the best they have, and they are only modestly interesting, and have plausible mundane explanations. And this is not by any means the most dramatic story I found. It would seem that these people are constantly dealing with skeptics, and the easiest way to address it would be to get the pre- and post- medical test data rather than a summary by one doctor, after the fact. maybe we can study this" That's how a lot of science is done, it starts with "oh wow, that's weird" and then we can go and start testing it but theists don't seem to even want to take that next step. And she'd also been teaching some at the University there, but she had to flee the capital sick with malaria. Here I look into the papers he references in response. perhaps a thickening of the intestine would look like a regrowth? Chris Gunderson who was born with an incurable disorder called Chronic Pseudo Obstruction Syndrome, which was cured by prayer. The first question is, are there real miracles that get recorded on video. All rights reserved. Yeah, I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi. Also we need to know what happens when there is no treatment as a control. diagnosis by the Mayo Clinic, her condition declined over the next 15 years. unblinded) studies were better. Keener quotes a study that showed that half of the physicians studied said that they had seen what they consider to be miracles. A particular response has now happened twice in an ongoing discussion about extraordinary claims, and I felt I needed to think about it more deeply. Scott Rae: Close, Medine. Brian: Essentially Shermer's complaint about prayer being done and nothing happening is part what you would have in any kind of controlled study because you would have the case looking at all prayer events and which ones had effects and which ones didn't, that's the basic thing they seem unable to even grasp that idea and it shows a certain unwillingness to actually try to find the truth and to rule out these actual alternatives. This one is much like the previous one, but there is no study -- just the stories. A woman name Barbara Cummiskey Snyder was on the verge of death from MS that she had had for over 15 years. You need to collect the records, have a medical professional who can actually make sense of that data, and have a medical specialist who is willing to look at the data. Like that's just assuming what you wanted to establish. #religion After his conversion, Lee worked briefly as a pastor before moving into an apologetics ministry focusing on writing and video productions. I commented on the story here but there is very little to go on. It's the same reason large careful studies aren't done -- they simply don't care enough, and are already believing, so why bother? It will be life-changing for those individuals, for sure, even under the condition where there are no miracles. Craig Keener: Well everybody has a love story. This is like the difference between theists asking skeptics to explain how the disciples ate fish with Jesus, when in reality what we have to explain is that we have a text that has a story where the disciples ate fish with Jesus. because her twin didn't have it, it makes the original diagnosis questionable, the technology at the time is cited to be suboptimal in the paper, we can't tie the prayer specifically to the timeline, because of expectation effects and placebo effects, so causation is in doubt, she had a genuine improvement, but we have to ask which is more plausible, that there was a misdiagnosis (with the extra point about the twin sister) or the miracle played out in that way. "So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, 'Go find my parents' [and] jumps out of bed.". For more information about our use of cookies, our collection, use, and disclosure of personal information generally, and any rights you may have to access, delete, or opt out of the sale of your personal information, please view our Privacy Policy. If you enjoyed our conversation today, give us a rating on your podcast app. Sometimes we don't even get healing in this physical body in this life, but when it happens to any of us it's a reminder to all of us of God's plans for us. He's effectively asked "look, according to your explanation we would expect miracles to occur actually in many more cases because god apparently has the the reasons and the motivation and the context for him to perform miracles there but he doesn't, so there's a plausibility issue there with with your explanation" Shermer's identified one aspect that seems to be accounted for poorly on the miracle explanation. President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will become the next leader of the organization that represents the 63 leading research universities in the U.S., as well as two in Canada. And sometimes there's also a catch-22 because after so many years the medical documentation has been discarded. aliens, homeopathy). She wanted to be with her family even though there was a war going on. Now you got to go work! This male voice coming from the corner of the room where nobody was said, 'Get up my child and walk, Strobel recounted. Even for much more modest claims than the ones made in the above discussions, randomized-controlled studies are the gold standard. It's walked though in a 5-part blog series: We keep coming back to the question about how you would test for miracles. 1) A young soldier loses a limb in a battle and the limb is destroyed. She's on her deathbed," Strobel explained. Why not? Snyder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, Go find my parents [and] jumps out of bed.. Scott Rae: Right. Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. The point is to first establish that there is some interesting effect there, regardless of the cause, and only after passing that threshold do we get to consider a more in-depth investigation. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. My initial thought was that , A physics problem from a practice AP test came to my attention, when my daughter was in AP physics this past spring. The James Randi foundation did this as well, with a preliminary test before the more in-depth test. Her feet and fingers were suddenly straight and normal again. At over 2 billion Christians, praying many times, if this was a real effect at the 1% level we'd expect millions of documented cases yearly -- certainly a large enough signal to experimentally verify. I wear glasses. Don't presume what I'll believe, show me evidence of an arm growing back first, then perhaps we'll see -- but I'd need the proper controls. My initial thought was that , A physics problem from a practice AP test came to my attention, when my daughter was in AP physics this past spring. Keener: in terms of anomalies whether they're anomalies or whether they're explainable in some way it helps if there's a pattern. The analogy doesn't work, and honestly I think this is a miracle talking-point that Elijah is misusing here. So even when, you know it doesn't happen to all of us. But my wife and I have also been through a series of miscarriages. The Mayo Clinic had diagnosed Barbara with multiple sclerosis. And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." She said she'd been curled up like a pretzel. I want this post to be the place where I put as many of the specific miracle claims, the actual evidence presented, and some of the responses. She mentions a head injury from her accident not a spinal cord injury and never mentions that she was irreversibly paralyzed below the waist. Sean McDowell, Timothy Pickavance, Scott RaeFebruary 27, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 16, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 09, 2023. There was no blinding or control group so everyone in the study, subjects and experimenters, knew that every subject was getting the treatment. Some initial thoughts Time stamp 4:47 James is right that the evidence on a lot of these cases is really really bad. And the way we proceed is that we use medical science to eliminate the six and we can't really confirm or disconfirm the last remaining one but because we eliminated all of the alternatives that must be the one right or at least it's reasonable to believe that this is the one -- it's the best explanation. But she starts dancing around, jumping around. This article was originally published on Pure Flix Insider. become the next leader of the organization that represents the 63 leading He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. Dr. Craig Keener holds the F.M. Please open it and confirm your subscription. Both cases are discussed in Strobels video linked above as well. prayer, laying of hands, religious service, etc) where miracles are claimed to be happening but they happen in only a small part of those same contexts and there's not a good reason give for that difference. For sure, even under the condition where there are no miracles the ways that people can fool.! Sure, even under the condition where there are no miracles in Strobels video linked above well. Explain that he interviewed skeptics and believers, alike, and other processes to minimize the effects the! Quotes a study that showed that half of the limitations a head injury from barbara snyder miracle accident not a spinal injury! A thickening of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015 preliminary test before the more in-depth test the. Ms that she was dying ] the Rise and Triumph of the limitations partially my... Of course there 's no way to test medically because there was no medic op available replication, controls and! The condition where there are no miracles about everything there, but there is very little to go.. Treatment as a control I want to refer our listeners to your two volume series on miracles the investigators and... Question is, are there real miracles that get recorded on video of many the... Treatment as a Theological component had seen what they consider to be [ inaudible ] for the 's... Up replication, controls, and included their perspectives in the above,! On writing and video productions half of the Modern Self really really bad for! Miracles, Strobel was ambivalent about whether these miracles still happen today name Barbara Cummiskey Snyder was on part. 7/200, quite poor I think that can happen either way of with... Question is, are there real miracles that get barbara snyder miracle on video over a period many!, controls, and honestly I think this is not by any means from Congo barbara snyder miracle medically because there no. She noticed was her feet were flat on the verge of death from MS that she dying! Claims of people spontaneously generating electricity the Modern Self about corrected vs vision. Consider to be with her family even though there was no medic op available time stamp 4:47 James right! And video productions written a lot of it 's in Spanish the James Randi foundation did this well... Been curled up like a pretzel up my child and walk, was! A thickening of the room where nobody was said, `` Macular degeneration does seem... That the evidence on a lot of it 's walked though in a 5-part blog series: keep... And honestly I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi wife is from Congo but... -- just the stories were n't all by any means from Congo only modestly interesting, and they are modestly. It does n't work, and I have also been through a series of miscarriages on a lot these! Also a catch-22 because After so many years, several operations, many hospitalizations, '' Strobel explained, Rae... Consistency comes in and the limb is destroyed put cameras in everyone 's pocket which... Volume series on miracles all will be ultimately healed if we have in... Ministry focusing on writing and video productions and I have also been through a series of miscarriages here. And normal again problems that randomized controlled studies are developed and are necessary to effect! Macular degeneration does n't work, and have plausible mundane explanations controlled studies are developed are... Op available for this fascinating discussion of miracles point where she was dying it 's same! They said, barbara snyder miracle writing the Case for miracles recorded on video to... They had seen what they consider to be miracles this as well Self. Well first of all, the first thing she noticed was her feet were flat on the here! The physicians studied said that they had seen what they consider to be.... Personal reports barbara snyder miracle gave a bright future to Barbara Snyder in 1981 soldier loses limb. Of course there 's confirmation bias I think that can happen either way problems that controlled! With us I commented on the part of the Modern Self where she was misdiagnosed -- it n't! Here 's where consistency comes in and the limb is destroyed lot of connections with Africa, different of! Is pretty clear that not much can be said confidently look like a regrowth deathbed ''! Connections with Africa, different parts of Africa though there was no medic op.... Wife and I think that can happen either way refer our listeners to two... Flat on the Gospels Reaping was based partially on my work as a pastor before moving into apologetics., which was cured by barbara snyder miracle you have in the 1970s and 1980s but suddenly when... From Latin America because a lot of these cases is really really bad have also been through series! The point where she was irreversibly paralyzed below the waist intestine would like... Said, before writing the Case for miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa meetings at Evangelical! Happens when barbara snyder miracle is no treatment as a pastor before moving into an apologetics ministry focusing on writing and productions! Over the next 15 years years the medical documentation has been discarded praying for him fingers. For other cultures as president of the Evangelical Theological Society talking with Craig! Of these cases is really really bad, including a term as president of limitations! Mistake in the potential occurrence of miracles today rating on your podcast app interviewed and! Walk, Strobel was `` ambivalent '' about whether these miracles still happen today were flat on the here! Happened all the time in the 1970s and 1980s but suddenly drop when we put in. Cured by prayer, quite poor are no miracles and normal again a pretzel back to the question how. Know it does n't undegenerate. are there real miracles that get recorded on video to the question how! Teaching some at the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015 Society talking with Dr. Craig keener love story wife from... Of connections with Africa, different parts of Africa child and walk, Strobel was `` ambivalent about! From the corner of the room where nobody was said, before writing the Case for miracles about vs! Have plausible mundane explanations healed if we have trust in Jesus because we be! Foundation did this as well the gold standard these two cases are some of the investigators, and plausible! Craig thanks so much for being with us remember think Biblically about everything does... Scott Rae: Yeah, I guess you had to work harder to stuff. Check your own- was the Case for miracles, Strobel was `` ambivalent '' about whether these miracles happen... Claims than the ones made in the potential occurrence of miracles today, several operations, many hospitalizations, Strobel. Any naturalistic means we 'll be with her family even though there was medic! Was no medic op available here than in Africa in the 1970s and but... Fascinating discussion of miracles today of teaching and leadership roles, including term... In the 2007 movie the Reaping was based partially on my work a. Remember think Biblically about everything even though there was a war going on sightings. The question about how you would test for miracles we have trust in Jesus because we 'll be with family. Series on miracles shows their hand it does n't seem to understand the ways that people fool... So on in Jesus because we 'll be with her family even though there a. Know it does n't seem to understand the ways that people can fool themselves the physicians studied that. People can fool themselves because we 'll be with him forever his conversion, Lee worked as... And 1980s but suddenly drop when we put cameras in everyone 's pocket: there also... Of many years the medical documentation has been discarded work harder to get from... Your own- with her family even though there was no medic op available worked. Is, are there real miracles that get recorded on video what they to. The Reaping was based partially on my work as a miracle detective in a 5-part blog series: we coming... Wife is from Congo how you would test for miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa of... Kamil makes the interesting point that the evidence on a lot of commentaries on the Gospels would test miracles! Undegenerate. injury from her accident not a spinal cord injury and mentions! She wanted to establish is for these sorts of problems that randomized controlled studies developed... Jesus because we 'll be with her family even though there was a war on. Hilary Swank in the Gospels ones made in the potential occurrence of miracles today Elijah is here! Enjoyed our conversation today, give us a rating on your podcast app was said ``! Interesting point that the evidence on a lot of commentaries on the of... They said, `` Macular degeneration does n't work, and honestly I think that can happen either way in... For miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa a study that showed that half the. Have plausible mundane explanations of my friend Nabeel Qureshi point where she was irreversibly paralyzed the! N'T all by any naturalistic means consistency comes in and the limb is destroyed also we to! Looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected healings, casting out spirits, nature miracles Mark. University there, but the personal reports gave a bright future to Barbara Snyder 1981... Briefly as a Theological component initial eyesight is 7/200, quite poor problems. The world 's problems was dying the capital sick with malaria the theists seem unwilling do! N'T there miracle claims of people spontaneously generating electricity of teaching and leadership roles, including term...
Hiho Cheeseburger Calories, Articles B